saqarTvelom damoukidebel TanamegobrobaSi arsebobaze saboloo uari erTi wlis win ganacxada. ris safuZvelzec 17 agvistos es gadawyvetileba ZalaSi Sevida. rogorc qarTulma sazogadoebam, ise eqspertebma es faqti araerTgvarovnad Seafases. garkveuli kategoriis adamianebi miiCneven, rom dsT-Si arc adre unda SevsuliyaviT da arc agvistos omis Semdgom davrCeniliyaviT. meoreni ki fiqroben, rom damoukidebel saxelmwifoTa TanamegobrobaSi Sesvla ki ar iyo Secdoma, aramed Sesvlis da gamosvlis dro iyo cudad SerCeuli.
am pozicias iziarebs dsT-Si saqarTvelos bolo elCic, romelsac umoqmedobis am erTi wlis manZilze xelfasic ar auRia da saxelmwifos mis mimarT didZali davalianeba daugrovda.
istorikosi da politologi, politikur mecnierebaTa doqtori, profesori, akademikosi zurab xoneliZe gulistkivils gamoTqvams imis gamo, rom saqarTvelom Tavis sasargeblod ver moaxerxa damoukidebel saxelmwifoTa Tanamegobrobis wevrobis gamoyeneba.
Cveni saubari am Temaze sakmaod vrceli da istoriuli wiaRsvlebiT aRsasve gamodga.
_ batono zurab, dsT-Si Sesla-gamosvlis Sesaxeb xmamaRali gancxadebebi araerTxel mogvismenia sxvadasxva dros da sxvadasxva politiosebis mxridan. masSi Sesvlasac da mere iqedan gamosvlis moTxovnebsac xmauri axlda. zogjer es politikuri dividendebisaTvisac keTdeboda da konkretuli gadawyvetilebebis miRebisas, zogierTi politikosi azrsac cvlida. zogs ki gulwrfelad swamda, rom Cveni adgili iq ar aris.
axla, roca sabolood davtoveT dsT-s sivrce, bevrs miaCnia, rom masSi yofna saqarTvelosaTvis arafris momtani iyo da adrec unda dagvetovebina. Tumca, am azrs mowinaaRmdegeebic gamouCndnen.
egeb upriani iyos, pirvel rigSi gansazRvroT, ras warmoadgenda es organizacia da ras aZlevda masSi yofna saqarTvelos?
_geTanxmebiT, rom swori daskvnebisaTvis aucilebelia jer avxsnaT, ra aris dsT da rogor movxvdiT am organizaciaSi. bevrs hgonia, rom es rusuli proeqtia da igi garkveulwilad, sabWoTa kavSiris reanimacias isaxavda miznad. es mcdari Sexedulebaa. ufro metsac getyviT, es rusul-amerikuli proeqtia, Tumca, ufro amerikuli, vidre rusuli.
_es bevrisaTvis albaT siaxlea. iqneb isic ganmartoT, ratom iyo amerika dainteresebuli am proeqtiT?
_mec vxvdebi, rom bevrisaTvis es ar aris cnobili. amerikis interesi ki sabWoTa kavSiris daSlis Sedegad atomis gakontorlebas ukavSirdeboda. mogexsenebaT, amerikas ormocdaaTi da aswliani gegmebic gaaCnda sabWoTa kavSiris daSlisa. magram roca es procesi realurad daiwyo, 1988 wlis Semdeg, dadga ramdenime saSiSroeba: pirveli, Tu adre atomur iaraRze kontrols kremli flobda, axla igi oTxi respublikis (ruseTi, ukraina, yazaxeTi da belorusia) xelSi aRmoCndeboda. swored imitom, rom atomuri iaraRi ar aRmoCeniliyo arakeTilganwyobili jgufis (vTqvaT ase, islamisturi fundamentalizmis, saerTaSoriso teroristuli organizaciebis) xelSi, damoukidebel saxelmwifoTa Tanamegobrobis organizaciis damfuZneblebad es oTxi yofili sabWoTa respublika mogvevlina. es iqneboda realuri saSiSroeba axali msofliosaTvis. amas garda, sabWoTa kavSiris daSlis SemTxvevaSi, am 15 respublikas teritoriuli pretenziebic rom eqneboda, amitom amerikam imTaviTve ganacxada, rom am sakiTxis gadasinjva ar moxdeboda. am procesebis SesaCereblad, 1989 wlis dekembris dasawyisSi, maltaze Sexvedra Sedga ssrk-s cekas generalur mdivan gorbaCovsa da amerikis maSindel prezident, mama buSs Soris. swored aq SemuSavda axali msoflios gadanawilebis sqema da jentlmenuri garigebac Sedga or udides saxelmwifos liders Soris. amis safuZvelze, aSS socialistur banaks xels ar kidebs, sabWoTa kavSirs, anu moskovs, uarCunebs kontrols post-sabWoTa sivrceze, rac 1939 wlamde miiRo. xolo rac mas Semdeg moyva is teritoriebi, anu baltiispireTi, unda daTmos.
_anu baltiispireTis gaTavisuflebaSi amerikasac miuZRvis garkveuli wvlili...
_swored asea. me SemiZlia gaviziaro mosazreba imis Sesaxeb, rom sabWoTa kavSiridan baltiispireTis qveynebis gamosvlaSi wvlili am xalxs miuZRvis. maTi cxovrebis wesi, politikuri kultura marTlac misabaZi magaliTia. es samyaro yovelTvis evropuli civilizaciis Semadgeneli nawili iyo. magram maT brZolas ar moutania damoukidebloba. es moitana sabWoTa kavSiris uzenaesma sabWom. amis dasturia is faqtic, rom swored amave wlis dekembris bolos ukve moxda molotov-ribentropis paqtis denonsacia.
maSinve dadga saqarTvelos gamoyofis sakiTxic. magram isic mkafiod iTqva, rom es sakiTxi im garigebisas ar damdgara. miuxedavad imisa, rom Cveni damoukidebloba ufro adre, 1920 wlis maisis xelSekrulebiT gaformda, 19 wliT adre, vidre ribentrop-molotovis paqti, magram es sakiTxi ar ganxilula. mas Semdeg kavSiris rRvevis SeCereba cota xniT mainc moxerxda. magram roca es sakiTxi dRis wesrigSi isev dadga, mama buSi ukve ukrainaSi Cavida da radas winaSe ganacxada, rom amerikamac ki, romelic demokratiis bujrad iTvleba, ver aiTvisa bolomde demokratia. misi naTqvami frTiani fraza mere msoflios moedo: `Tavisufleba demokratiis sanacvlod~. anu, man Tqva, rom jer demokratia unda aaSenoT da mere moipovoT Tavisuflebao.
swored am periodSi, saqarTveloSi ifeTqa erovnulma moZraobam. arCevnebis gziT movida erovnuli xelisufleba, Catarda referendumi da gamocxadda damoukidebloba.
_anu, demokratiis sanacvlod...
_warmoidgineT, xelisflebaSi movida disidenti, helsinkis kavSiris erT-erTi damfuZnebeli da ase Semdeg, romelic yvelaze metad misaRebi unda yofiliyo amerikisTvis. magram is Zaladobrivi gziT midis xelisuflebidan da mere, Cvenda samwuxarod, cxovrebasac tragikulad amTavrebs. xolo amerikis xelSewyobiT, isev yofili cekas mdivnebi xdebian prezidentebi.
_anu rasTan gvaqvs saqme?
_ amerikis damokidebuleba saqarTvelosTan mimarTebaSi Seicvala. maTi azriT, gamsaxurdia midis dinebis sawinaaRmdegod. radgan sabWoTa kavSiridan respublikis gamoyofis precendenti dauSva, Torem sabWoTa kavSiri ki ar daSala.
_magram procesi xom maSin daiwyo?
_diax, swored amis Semdeg daiwyo sabWoTaA kavSiris rRvevis procesi, romlis SeCereba SeuZlebeli gaxda. swored amis Semdeg gaCnda, am sivrcis SenarCunebis axali proeqti, ris safuZvelzec dsT Seiqmna. magram igi ar aris warmoqmnili sabWoTa kavSiris samarTalmemkvidred. sabWoTa kavSiris daSlis samarTlebrivi dokumentic arc arsebobs. erTaderTi amis safuZveli iyo mxolod gorbaCovis gancxadeba, rom daiSala sabWoTa kavSiri. es iyo 1991 wlis 6-8 dekemberi. is qveynebi, romlebic dsT-s damfuZneblebad SearCia amerikam, samive atomuri iaraRis mflobeli da gaeros damfuZneblebi iyvnen. gagrZelda saqmianoba am warmonaqmnSi sxva qveynebis mierTebisa. Tumca, arc wesdeba arsebobda da arc debuleba. magram, ratomRac, maSinve saerTaSoriso regionaluri organizaciis da gaeroSi meTvalyuris statusi mieniWa.
ramdenime dRis Semdeg, 21 dekembers, yazaxeTis dedaqalaqSi dainiSna Sexvedra. yvela qveyanaSi midis muSaoba am organizaciaze SesaerTeblad, garda saqarTvelosi.
_amis mizezi xelisuflebis dinebis sawinaaRmdego moqmedeba iyo?
_ ra Tqma unda. mama buSma zviad gamsaxurdias verdiqti ukve gamoutana.
rogorc dRes ruseTi acxadebs saakaSvilTan mimarTebaSi, sanam es iqneba, Cven pozicias ar SevcvliTo.
_magram zviad gamsaxurdia mainc iZulebuli gaxda es damokidebuleba Seecvala.
_magram ukve dagvianebiT. gaxsovT albaT, rom misi gamosvlebi dsT-sadmi Tavdapirvelad sul sxvagvari iyo. roca igi mixvda, procesebidan amovardnis Tavidan asacileblad, mainc aucilebeli iyo am organizaciaSi gawevrianeba, saqarTvelodan sami jgufi cal-calke gaigzavna. alma-atamde ki CaaRwies, magram saqmemde yvelaze axlos mxolod bakur gulua miuSves, Tavisi kontaqtebidan gamomdinare. gamsaxurdias uzenaesi sabWos vice-spikeri da finansTa ministri iqamde ver mivida. iq ki bakur guluam aseTi pasuxi miiRo, rom saqarTvelo Zalian givyars, magram es sakiTxi Cvens doneze ar wydebodao.
_anu igi uariT dabrunda.
_da swored meore dRes saqarTveloSi gavrda pirveli tyvia. daiwyo ZmaTa mkvleli omi. bevri araqarTuli ganwyobis ZalebisTvis sakmarisi piroba iyo is, rom saqarTvelo am sivrces ar miuerTda. xolo saerTaSoriso Tanamegobroba erovnul xelisuflebas, yvela misi dadebiTi faqtoris miuxedavad, damcveli ar eyoleboda. mere rac xdeboda, yvelas kargad gvaxsovs: ruseTis SeiaraRebuli nawilebi xan erT mxares amaragebdnen tyvia-wamliT, xan meores. erTidaigive manqanac ki moZraobda mxareebs Soris.
zviad gamsaxurdias qveynidan gaZevebis Semdeg rom samarTlebrivi vakuumi gaCnda, amiT isargebles separatistebma da rac moxda gvaxsovs. Cveni pirveli Secdoma Zveli, 1921 wlis konstituciis aRdgena iyo, romelSic Cven da afxazeTi samarTlebrivad erTian sivrceSi ar viyaviT.
magram vakuumis Sesavsebad yvelaze misaReb figurad rogorc amerikis, ise ruseTisTvisac gaxda eduard SevardnaZe. misi yvelaze didi Secdoma iyo afxazeTis omi da mere am problemis internacionalizacia. amiT man saqmeSi CarTo saerTaSoriso Tanamegobroba da sakuTari pasuxismgebloba gadaanawila. afxazeTis dakargvis Semdeg dsT-Si Sesvlas aranairi azri ar hqonda. ukve dagvianebuli iyo da afsurdulic. amitom CarCo xelSekrulebis ratifikaciac ar moxda.
saubarSi Tavdacvis yofili ministris moadgile, generali guram nikolaiSvilic CagverTo.
_ ruseTs rogor unda moTxovo afxazeTis teritoriuli maTlianobis aRdgena. xolo is ormxrivi xelSekruleba, `saqarTvelos teritoriaze ruseTis samxedro bazebis statusis Sesaxeb”, romelic sami punqtisagan Sedgeboda, miznad isaxavda saqarTvelos teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenaSi ruseTis daxmarebas, ruseTis daxmarebas saqarTvelosa da ruseTis samxedro SenaerTebSi Semavali Semadgenlobis likvidaciasa da qarTuli jaris mSeneblobaSi daxmarebas. es sul sxva konteqsti iyo. amitomac misi ratificireba ar moxda.
aslan abaSiZe eubneboda SevardnaZes, ar gaetana es sakiTxi qveynis gareT da Tavad ecdeboda am problemis mogvarebas, magram esec ar moxda. me var amis momswre_ ganacxada batonma guramma.
_daniSvniT ki daniSna konfliqtebis mogvarebaSi Tavis pirad warmomadgenlad, magram aranairi oficialuri dokumenti, an nota ar miucia, rogorc maxsovs...
_radgan esec farsi iyo. Tanac am sakiTxSi unda CarTuliyvnen damoukidebel saxelmwifoTa Tanamegobrobis prezidentebi da ara regionis lideri_agrZelebs saubars zurab xoneliZe_magram Tu wina xelisuflebam saqarTvelos konteqstidan amoagdo afxazeTi, axalma xelisuflebam saqarTvelo kavkasiis geopolitikuri sivrcidan amoagdo. ara aqvs mniSvneloba vin daiwyo omi, saqarTelos ar dauwyia da is iyo provocirebuli. magram gaugebaria, roca Tavslafdasxmuli, RirsebaSelaxuli eri zar-zeimiT aRniSnavs damarcxebas. xelisuflebam sxva veraferi moifiqra da ganacada, davsajeT ruseTi da amitom gamovdivarT dsT-dano. me vfiqrob, es idea saqarTveloSi ar daibadeboda.
_Tqven fiqrobT, rom amaSic amerikis xeli urevia?
_ufro ruseTis, an romelime mezobeli, ara mTladkeTilmosurne qveynis, romelic cdilobs ruseTTanac daareguliros urTierToba da amerikasTanac.
_Zalian sainteresoa am istoriul WrilSi sakiTxis vrclad ganxilva, magram egeb mokled gviTxraT, ra funqcia hqonda dsT-s, rogor SeiZleboda misi gamoyeneba da ra miviReT dsT-dan gamosvliT?
_kavaksiis regionSi saqarTvelo istoriulad gansazRvravda regionalur politikas. saqarTvelo iyo Zlieri da kavkasiac iyo Zlieri. es funqcia davkargeT da axla ufunqciod davexetebiT. gamovediT dsT-dan da ruseTis dasjiT miviReT is, rom ruseTis damsaxurebiT, gaeros da euTos misiebi wyveten funqcionirebas saqarTveloSi da vrCebiT pirispir ruseTis winaSe. anu, rusul-amerikuli proeqti daixura saqarTvelosTvis. magram saqarTvelo darCa ganiaraRebuli. ruseTis da amerikis interesebi Cvens mimarT darCa igive, Cven ki SiSveli xelebiT aRmovCndiT lomis xaxaSi. dsT saerTaSoriso regionaluri organizaciaa da azri imis Sesaxeb, TiTqos ruseTs amis SenarCuneba sWirdebda afsurdia. es pirvel rigSi, saqarTvelos Wirdeboda da misi interesebis realizaciisaTvis gamoyenebac SeeZlo. ruseTs ki es mxolod sivrceze kontrolisaTvis Wirdeboda. Cveni gamosvla mas uamravi miRebuli valdebulebebisagan aTavisuflebs.
_yvelafers Tavisi dro aqvs. Cveni Secdoma isaa, rom sadac mivediT uadgilo dros mivediT da saidanac gamovediT udroo dros gamovediT, amitom davrCiT Sara-gzaze_dasZens guram nikolaiSvili.
_SeiZleboda gamosvlis sakiTxi dagveyenebina, magram Cvens poziciasTan migveba. gamosvla, an gamosvlis SeCereba unda dagvekavSirebina movlenasTan da problemasTan. mogvewvia dsT-s meTaurTa sabWos riggareSe sxdoma, rasac didi xania xelisuflebas vTavazob.
_uSualod prezidents SesTavazeT?
_ara, am xnis manZilze mas ar mousurvebia CemTan Sexvedra. amitom vuTvlidi mas sxvadasxva wyaroebiT da albaT eubnebodnen. me ar velodebodi ruseTis mosvlas am sxdomaze. magram es CvenTvis kidev ukeTesi iqneboda.
_am gadawyvetilebis momxreebi amboben, rom mSvidobismyofelebisTvis mandatis gagrZeleba miuRebeli iyo da kargi araferi moutania. isini ar icavdnen mosaxleobas, piriqiT...
_maT warmodgena ara aqvT ras iTvaliswinebs is mandati, ar ician sad aris sazRvari, konfliqtis zona, maTi funqciebi, vin amtkicebs mandats da ase Semdeg. Tu miuRebeli iyo mandati, vin gviSlida sakiTxi dagveyenebia?..
roca dsT-Si viyaviT kontorlis meqanizmi mainc arsebobda mSvidbismyofelebis moqmedebasa da gadaadgilebaze. maT sapolicio funqcia ki ar hqondaT, rom mosaxleoba daecvaT. gaeros rezoluciebSi mudmivad madlobas ucxadebdnen maT. axla gamovediT dsT-dan da mSvidobismyofelebmac Sesabamisad funqcia Seicvales, gamoicvales qudebi da ukve maTi gakontrolebis meqanizmic ar arsebobs. rogor unda davicvaT Cveni moqalaqeebi, ras veubnebiT maT, vis vutovebT? Tan mudmivad vaRizianebT gancxadebebiT, mtris xatis SeqmniT, rac araferi kargis momtani ar aris. amiT Cven uxerxeuloba SevuqmeniT Cvens momxre saxelmwifoebsac. radgan isini TavianTi qveynis interesebze maRla Cvens interesebs ver daayeneben da davayeneT arCevanis winaSe: an Cven, ar ruseTi. es patara qveynebi ki ara, amerika da evropac angariSs uwevs ruseTs da urCevnia partniorad yavdes, vidre daupirispirdes.
Cveni mizani unda iyos, yvela organizaciidan maqsimaluri mogeba miviRoT. arsebobda amis saSualeba ufro metad, vidre gaerodan, an euTodan. afxazeTis dasabruneblad arasakmarisi, magram procesis dasawyebad saWiro meqanizmi amaSi iyo Cadebuli. gaerosgan gasnxvavebiT, aq ruseTs vetos dadebis ufleba ara aqvs. ufro loialuri wesdeba arc erT saerTaSoriso organizacias ar gaaCnia. dsT Rebulobs gadawyvetilebebs, xolo gaero rezolucias da darekomendacias iZleva.
_magram Tu gadawyvetilebebi ar sruldeba?
_yvela gadawyvetileba Cems doneze rom ar wydeboda gasagebia albaT. magram rac miviReT, araqarTuli poziciidan arc erTi ar iyo. imasac mivaRwieT, rom dsT-Si saqarTvelo da afxazeTi mxareebad ar yofiliyvnen warmodgenili da konfliqtis statusi Secvliliyo, anu daerqva ara `saqarTelo-afxazeTis konfliqti~, romelic isev aRadgines Cemi wamosvlis Semdeg, aramed `konfliqti saqarTveloSi, afxazeTi”.
axali gadawyvetilebebis miReba araa saWiro teritoriebis dasabruneblad, rac miRebuli iyo dsT-s formatSi, imis amoqmedebaa saWiro.
_ras exeboda es gadawyetilebebi?
_1995 wlidan uamravi gadawyvetileba iqna miRebuli rogorc teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenis, ise kulturuli, socialuri, ekonomikuri, demografiuli problemebis Sesaxeb. magram misi amoqmedeba ar xdeboda imis gamo, rom xelisufleba ar iTvaliswinebda Cems winadadebebs. meqanizmi iyo saWiro ruseTis politikuri nebis misaRwevad. amisaTvis Camoyalibebuli mqonda sqema, rogor gagekontrolebina gadawyvetilebis Sesruleba da prezidentebis doneze, am gadawyvetilebebis Sesrulebis angariSvaldebuli organo Segveqmna. swored am ideis damaxinjebuli saxiT miReba gaxda safuZveli aslan abaSiZisaTvis prezidentis piradi warmomadgenlis saxelis miniWebisa, isic formalurad. amasTan dakavSirebiT aslan abaSiZesac Sevxvdi, magram es ar iyo Cemi ideis arsi. 12 qveynis prezidentis piradi pasuxismgeblobis safuZvelze unda momxdariyo gadawyvetilebebis miRebidan Sesrulebamde procesis gakontroleba da ara ori prezidentis warmomadgenlebis mier.
ar vici Segnebulad xdeboda, Tu gauazreblad, magram dsT-s gamoyenebis SesaZeblobebi ar iqna gamoyenebuli da amitomac axla win ki ara, ukan unda viaroT da movubrundeT problemis mogvarebas da rac SeiZleba swrafad.
_gasagebia ra davkargeT. magram raSia gamosavali?
_pirvel rigSi, Cveni qveynis samoqmedo gemga da funqcia unda gansazRvroT. Cveni problemebis gamosavali devs Cvens geopolitikaSi. RmerTma mogvca sikeTe, magram ar viyenebT. verc erTma Cvenma xelisufalma, damoukideblobis miRebis Semdeg ver gadadga drois Sesaferisi nabijebi. amitomac saqarTvelo realuri safrTxis winaSe dgas. raRaca sazRvrebi darCeba, magram es ar iqneba qarTuli cnobierebis, tradiciebis, adaT-wesebis qveyana. Cven SevqmeniT garkveuli Tanamoazreebisagan Semdgari jgufi da Cvens xedvas problemebis mogvarebis TvalsazrisiT sazogadoebas xval gavacnobT.
saqarTvelos beds, istoriulad, sagareo faqtori gansazRvravs, amitom meamitobaa imis Zaxili, rom amerika, Tu ruseTi, an arc amerika da arc ruseTi. Cven unda ganvsazRvroT Cveni strategia da mizani. pirvel rigSi, qveynis rRvevis procesi unda SevaCeroT. amisaTvis aucilebelia moxdes interesTa Tanxvedra qarTuli saxelmwifos miznebis gaTvaliswinebiT da ara geopolitikuri sivrcidan amovardna, satranzito funqciis sxvis sasargeblod daTmoba.
dRes gamodis, rom arc mizani gvaqvs, arc geografia da istoria viciT, arc geopolitika viciT, arc is viciT, ra procesebi midis msoflioSi, vis ra interesebi aqvs, ramdenad mudmivi da Tanxvedria es interesebi da ra safrTxe gvemuqreba. samagierod, saxelmwifo interesebis sakuTar interesebze morgeba viciT da gadaWarbebuli warmodgenis Seqmna SegviZlia. ase qveynis winsvla SeuZlebelia. raSia gamosavali, amis Sesaxeb SemuSavebul gegmas dainteresebul sazogadoebas aucileblad gavacnobT.
p.s. xval batoni zurab xoneliZe Tavis TanamoazreebTan erTad, Tavisufali azris saxlis droebiT axal ofisSi, axvledianis (perovskaia) #12-Si 13 saaTze am Temebze preskonferencias gamarTavs.
